Bass Boat Forums
General Forums => Tow Vehicles => Topic started by: transamz9 on December 28, 2016, 02:19:11 PM
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I'm wondering, how many of you actually pay attention to payload when buying a vehicle?
How do YOU determine or make up YOUR mind that a vehicle's ability is right for you? Do you "just know" it will handle what you are going to use it for or do you look at numbers whether it be the Payload the manufacture places on the particular vehicle or do you go by axle capacities or tire capacities?
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Well payload is the amount that it can haul, not tow, so that has never been a factor for me. I look more at the towing capacity.
My 4runner has a towing capacity of 5000lbs and my boat and trailer is close to 4000 which is too close to me. It does fine, but I think it still stresses it out a bit, so now I am looking for a vehicle for a higher capacity just for the extra peice of mind.
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Well payload is the amount that it can haul, not tow, so that has never been a factor for me. I look more at the towing capacity.
My 4runner has a towing capacity of 5000lbs and my boat and trailer is close to 4000 which is too close to me. It does fine, but I think it still stresses it out a bit, so now I am looking for a vehicle for a higher capacity just for the extra peice of mind.
Okay, lets talk about your 4Runner then. You say payload has nothing to do with towing? What is the GVWR of your 4Runner? How much does your 4Runner weigh. You have to remember that the tongue weight on your boat takes away from your payload. If your tongue weight is 10% of your boat and your boat weighs 4,000# then you are putting 400# on the 4Runner. That is using your payload.
Now, you say "400# ain't nothing" Now you need to add the cooler you have in the back and all the other stuff that didn't come with the 4Runner when it rolled of the assembly line. What about your buddy that weighs 250#. The stuff that he brought with him? Have you added anything to the 4Runner like running boards, vent visors, bug shields etc? What about the tires? are they original? If not, do they weigh the same as the OE tires? All this adds up.
What year is your 4 Runner?
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Well payload is the amount that it can haul, not tow, so that has never been a factor for me. I look more at the towing capacity.
My 4runner has a towing capacity of 5000lbs and my boat and trailer is close to 4000 which is too close to me. It does fine, but I think it still stresses it out a bit, so now I am looking for a vehicle for a higher capacity just for the extra peice of mind.
Something else you should know is that payload actually reduces the "towing capacity". Your towing capacity is 5,000# with the base version of your model. If you have a loaded out version of the model then the weight of all the options that were added by the manufacture comes off the "towing capacity" Make sense?
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yes I agree with all of that, but I never carry anything other than my fat self and my even larger partner. I guess if you are carrying a lot in the vehicle it is for sure something to think about.
The payload is 1300 on the 4runner, and my tounge weight is about 500 lbs. So I am looking at about 1000 of payload, so I am actually closer than I would have thought.
I did add airbags to the back rear springs to help keep it level. Not sure if that increased any payload or not.
And hopefully soon I will have a vehicle like a Sequoia that has a lot higher payload and towing capacity.
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yes I agree with all of that, but I never carry anything other than my fat self and my even larger partner. I guess if you are carrying a lot in the vehicle it is for sure something to think about.
The payload is 1300 on the 4runner, and my tounge weight is about 500 lbs. So I am looking at about 1000 of payload, so I am actually closer than I would have thought.
I did add airbags to the back rear springs to help keep it level. Not sure if that increased any payload or not.
And hopefully soon I will have a vehicle like a Sequoia that has a lot higher payload and towing capacity.
Actually adding the air bags took away from your payload. I know the bags and hardware to mount then are not very heavy but you wold be surprised at how close you are. The only true way to tell your available payload is to go to a scale and actually weigh the 4Runner. do you not have you insurance info in the car? CDs? Maybe ice scraper. How much dirt is in, on , under the car? All that is payload.
You say that you added air bags to help level the truck. Lets talk about that for a moment. Most SUV's that I have seen the GAWR's added together added together are pretty close to the GVWR of the SUV. If you are that close to your GVWR and add the trailer tongue weight into the equation, how close are you to being overloaded on your rear axle?
Think about this....
Let's say your 4runner's rear overhang is 3' (distance from center of rear axle to the center of the ball your boat rides on) . Now we'll say that your wheel base is 10' (center of front wheel to center of back wheel). We know that your tongue weight is 500#. 500# being your force. Force X Overhang / wheel base will give you how much weight you are removing from your front axle and adding to your rear axle when you put 500# of force on the trailer ball. 500 X 3 / 10 = 150#. So you 500# tongue weight is actually putting 650# on your rear axle. ;)
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Yep for sure something to think about, and will help me convince my wife I need a new tow vehicle ;D
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And hopefully soon I will have a vehicle like a Sequoia that has a lot higher payload and towing capacity.
Let's use a Sequoia for an example. You said "And hopefully soon I will have a vehicle like a Sequoia that has a lot higher payload" . I will use a 2017 4Runner against a 2017 Sequoia.
Sequoia 4wd SR5 with 5.7 V8 has a GVWR 7300#. The Base curb weight with no added options is 5985#. That gives the larger you would think more capable Sequoia a payload of 1315# before adding anything.
4Runner TRD with 4.0 V6 has a GVWR of 6300#. The base curb weight with no added options is 4750#. That gives the smaller 4Runner a payload of 1550#.
Which is more capable now? You've already said that you figure that you add 1000 pounds to your 4Runner. That would leave you with 315# left on a Sequoia that is a base with no options.
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Yep for sure something to think about, and will help me convince my wife I need a new tow vehicle ;D
Let's do something that's a little wild. Obviously you are a Toyota man so let's look at the almighty Space Shuttle towing Tundra. I mean that thing can tow the Space Shuttle it can surely handle a load right? Lets compare.......
2017 Tundra SR5 Crewmax 5.7 V8.
GVWR is 7200#. Base curb weight before adding any options is 5640#. That leaves you with a whopping 1550# of payload. Now, we have just bought us a truck so we want to make it look like a truck so we want to add a 200# grill guard to the front, maybe a 100# winch on that. Can't forget the big 10# light bars on the front and rear of the cab. Got to have a tool box right? I mean it is a truck. How much weight will that tool box hold?
Looking at the numbers, maybe you should stay with a 4Runner?
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Hmm that is interesting. I guess I need to find a new partner or have him lose weight. (shrug)
The light weight of my 4runner is my biggest problem and I have towed with heavier SUV's and it makes a world of difference to me, and I feel a lot better about the 10000 towing capacity over the 5000 I have now..
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What gets me about vehicle manufactures and their numbers game is that very seldom does anything add up. Which scenario seems safer to you. A Toyota 4Runner pulling a trailer that weighs 4000# with a tongue weight of 500# or a Tundra pulling a trailer that weighs 10,000# with a tongue weight of 500#. Have you ever pulled a trailer that was not balanced? Can be very hard to handle.
You claim that the heavier vehicle handles the trailer the best? Let me give you another example of "towing capacity" because that's what you see that matters.
2017 Ram 3500 DRW Crew Cab Long Bed 4X4:
Three identical trucks in every way except one. Weight, size ,engine, transmission,brakes, axle capacities. Everything the same except axle gear ratio.
3.42:1 has a max trailer towing capacity of 20,520#
3.73:1 has a max trailer towing capacity of 25,020# (+5,500 more than truck above)
4.10:1 has a max trailer towing capacity of 30,320# (+9,800 more than the first truck)
9,800# all by just getting a different gear ratio. All three trucks are identical weight capacities.
Let me throw in a little kicker.....
Same truck as above but instead of crew cab it's just a regular cab. The max trailer capacity is 30,830#. That's 510# more than the heavier truck. The regular cab truck is 514# lighter than the less capable Crew Cab truck. So much for heavier being better for towing. (giggle)
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Guys just get yourselves a Chevy 2500 6L Vortex and you won't need to bother your minds with non fishing trivia. You can load the boat and truck with no worries except paying for the gas. (shrug)
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Guys just get yourselves a Chevy 2500 6L Vortex and you won't need to bother your minds with non fishing trivia. You can load the boat and truck with no worries except paying for the gas. (shrug)
Really? Do you think your Big Chevy 2500 could handle the way I pull my boat? This is the way my boat gets 90% of the miles put on it.......
(https://www.bassboatboards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi968.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fae169%2Ftransamz9%2Fmega%2520cab%25204_zps6hfaziyt.jpg&hash=4dcf93891dce766704a2a544bc6a79a4b064a37e)
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Yes he does..... and I'm affeared to keep up. (whew)
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Yes he does..... and I'm affeared to keep up. (whew)
Now Nitey, I don't tow fast. I'm a safe driver. It was pouring down rain that day you were behind me. Nashville sucked. (whew)
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I doubt it would do that very easily. I do pull a 30' 5th wheeler with it. It does the job but not as well as the Duramax I had before it. I let my wife pull the boat with her Jeep Liberty.
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Actually adding the air bags took away from your payload. I know the bags and hardware to mount then are not very heavy but you wold be surprised at how close you are. The only true way to tell your available payload is to go to a scale and actually weigh the 4Runner. do you not have you insurance info in the car? CDs? Maybe ice scraper. How much dirt is in, on , under the car? All that is payload.
You say that you added air bags to help level the truck. Lets talk about that for a moment. Most SUV's that I have seen the GAWR's added together added together are pretty close to the GVWR of the SUV. If you are that close to your GVWR and add the trailer tongue weight into the equation, how close are you to being overloaded on your rear axle?
Think about this....
Let's say your 4runner's rear overhang is 3' (distance from center of rear axle to the center of the ball your boat rides on) . Now we'll say that your wheel base is 10' (center of front wheel to center of back wheel). We know that your tongue weight is 500#. 500# being your force. Force X Overhang / wheel base will give you how much weight you are removing from your front axle and adding to your rear axle when you put 500# of force on the trailer ball. 500 X 3 / 10 = 150#. So you 500# tongue weight is actually putting 650# on your rear axle. ;)
You're making my head hurt with all of this math (fp) LOL (giggle)
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yes I agree with all of that, but I never carry anything other than my fat self and my even larger partner.
He he (giggle)
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I just wanna add one minor piece of info. Most trucks made will tow most boats just fine HOWEVER most small trucks will be pushed thru a stop sign by most Bassboat rigs in a panic stop. BRAKES are more important then if you can do 70 up a hill pulling a boat trailer and a home on wheels . You pull a 70,000.00 rig in your 50,000.00 truck you wanna be darn sure its gonna stop. Japenese truck brakes suck plain and simple and when it comes time to replace them pads DONT skimp at the parts store and get them MADE in Mexico or China crap glue on resurfaced pads remember what you have invested back there . 20.00 more aint no big thang Best rotors pads and calipers in the long run will outlast 3 sets of imported junk. do the math. At the shop I wont install imported crap on trailers or tow vehicles dont like it go to midas.......
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@bullet20dc Excellent point on boats pushing smaller trucks during hard stops. Small trucks really shouldn't be towing much more than small utility trailers. (nope)
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I just wanna add one minor piece of info. Most trucks made will tow most boats just fine HOWEVER most small trucks will be pushed thru a stop sign by most Bassboat rigs in a panic stop. BRAKES are more important then if you can do 70 up a hill pulling a boat trailer and a home on wheels . You pull a 70,000.00 rig in your 50,000.00 truck you wanna be darn sure its gonna stop. Japenese truck brakes suck plain and simple and when it comes time to replace them pads DONT skimp at the parts store and get them MADE in Mexico or China crap glue on resurfaced pads remember what you have invested back there . 20.00 more aint no big thang Best rotors pads and calipers in the long run will outlast 3 sets of imported junk. do the math. At the shop I wont install imported crap on trailers or tow vehicles dont like it go to midas.......
You know me B. I usually run only OEM brakes. I usually don't keep a truck long enough to wear the factory brakes out. Lol
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Hey Tranz a while back u ax'd me about the air ride in my rig. I had a wierd read out come up on the evic
air suspension compressor is cooling down please wait and then the air suspension system needs immediate service had the control module reflashed problem seems to be gone but anyway pertaining to this thread You know the 1/2 ton I had before this new one with air suspension. The std spring suspension is a huge diff in payload capacity over the air ride. My slide in camper was fine on the spring Mossy Oak I had but the Laramie air ride couldnt handle it The camper was 1400 lbs and would really rock the Laramie side to side and with the boat at the back (tongue weiight around 150) the air ride was really straining to get her back up there. Going back to springs next truck
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Funny you post that Charlie. That is kind of what I started this thread about. You seem to be one of those that just look at a truck and say yeah it will handle it. Personally I wouldn't put your camper in anything less than a 2500 with maybe the exception of a Ford F150 with the heavy duty payload option which is darn near impossible to find on a lot without ordering one. The Nissan Titan XD would handle it great but they cost as much as a HD truck unless you get the rice burner under the hood.
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But then with the Nissan with the Cummins you have one Heck of a engine with a truck that hasnt had that good of a reputation. 20+ years ago sure the nissans werent that bad for a little work truck. Ill stick with my 2500 Ram with the Cummins in it. My old truck with the Hemi was a great truck and pulled anything I ever hooked to it. I normally dont trade or swap vehicles very much at all. So I have full intensions on keeping my 2500 until it falls apart.
Charlie is right though. I cant believe folks when they pull up with a full size bass rig with something like a S-10 or a small truck. They say oh yeah it pulls it great. Im sure it does but the weight of a full size truck even if it had a 6 cylinder in it helps with stopping and overall drivability and safety pulling anything.
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What ya mean I seem to be one of those guys. I had that camper when I had the 3/4 dodge and it handled it great till the frame and suspension started rotting, only year dodge didnt under coat at the factory and forced me to get the new mossy oak version Ram. btw std springs Then I went in for an inspection a year later and saw the one I have now I did some research on it and was assured the air ride would handle the slide in. Nope too soft. I like the truck with every option available more then i did the camper so sold it for more then I paid for it 8 years ago
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was assured the air ride would handle the slide in. Nope too soft.
If that assurance came from a salesman, I 'spose you'll remember him the next time you're shoppin' trucks...
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The boat pushing my 4runner was also another reason I wanted a heavier vehicle. It stops just fine right now with the trailer brakes but if they ever fail for some reason I will be in trouble for sure.
I did change my brakes also to a cross drilled and slotted rotor and pads. This is the ones I used. http://www.powerstop.com/product/power-stop-z36-kit/#y=2007&mk=TOYOTA&mo=4RUNNER&ss=Models%20with%20319mm%20(12.56)%20Front%20Rotors (http://www.powerstop.com/product/power-stop-z36-kit/#y=2007&mk=TOYOTA&mo=4RUNNER&ss=Models%20with%20319mm%20(12.56)%20Front%20Rotors)
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was assured the air ride would handle the slide in. Nope too soft.
If that assurance came from a salesman, I 'spose you'll remember him the next time you're shoppin' trucks...
Dodge's are soft, they are quite different than them big bags used on semis or the after-market kits. Dodge designed their system for ride and ride height adjustment capability & leveling first, not handling characteristics. What I've seen is they handle best when down low, less air bounce and shocks work better too. If you put enough shock on your truck to manage the role you'd not like the ride at all.
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was assured the air ride would handle the slide in. Nope too soft.
If that assurance came from a salesman, I 'spose you'll remember him the next time you're shoppin' trucks...
Dodge's are soft, they are quite different than them big bags used on semis or the after-market kits. Dodge designed their system for ride and ride height adjustment capability & leveling first, not handling characteristics. What I've seen is they handle best when down low, less air bounce and shocks work better too. If you put enough shock on your truck to manage the role you'd not like the ride at all.
IMO the air springs they use are too small. It's not that the bags are not heavy enough to carry the weight they just don't have enough volume to be a good handling ride when heavily loaded.
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Hey Tranz a while back u ax'd me about the air ride in my rig. I had a wierd read out come up on the evic
air suspension compressor is cooling down please wait and then the air suspension system needs immediate service had the control module reflashed problem seems to be gone but anyway pertaining to this thread You know the 1/2 ton I had before this new one with air suspension. The std spring suspension is a huge diff in payload capacity over the air ride. My slide in camper was fine on the spring Mossy Oak I had but the Laramie air ride couldnt handle it The camper was 1400 lbs and would really rock the Laramie side to side and with the boat at the back (tongue weiight around 150) the air ride was really straining to get her back up there. Going back to springs next truck
Hey B I have a little time so I wanted to hit on what you were experiencing with your truck with air ride a little more.
It's not that you air ride wouldn't handle your set up its, just the way they have it set up on the 1500 trucks. Like Frug said, Ram has their 1500's set up for ride , comfort and fuel mileage. Your system works pretty much constantly so it's be-known to to me why they didn't put a compressor on them that is rated at 100% duty cycle. I have not done much research on the system on your truck but I do know that it lowers the truck above 50-55 for fuel mileage and then raises it back up under those speeds. Then it lowers when you get out to park and raises for off road use and so on. They had to pick a bag size that was a happy medium to be able to accomplish all that. If they had used bigger bags then the compressor would have had to been big to be able to supply the CFM necessary to adjust quickly.
Another problem you have is that with an air suspension like yours they can set it up to handle the maximum axle capacity right down to the pound because they know by the size of the bag how much air pressure it requires to hold that weight. I'm sure like anything else a OEM does they put a compressor in that is only capable of compressing just enough air to run the system plus maybe 10%. When you start figuring your weights that you were applying on the rear axle you were more than likely exceeding that quite a bit. The bad thing about truck campers is that they often have a center of gravity that is directly over the rear axle and sometimes behind . so that 1400# camper depending on where that center of gravity is can be applying more than that 1400# to the rear axle. Remember, every time your truck comes to a stop and shows 0 on the speedo the system analyzes your ride height and adjusts accordingly. If you come to a stop on a hill then the center of gravity of that truck camper has changed and could be applying more or less pressure to the rear or front axle depending on which way you are facing on that hill. Now add in the tongue weight of the Bullet. Did you have it on an extended receiver hitch to clear the TC? Remember my math in the earlier post. The farther away from the rear axle you get your ball the more it takes off the front axle and adds to the rear axle.
If I'm not mistaken your trucks RAWR is 3900#. If I were to take a guess your truck empty just sitting there has about 23-2500# sitting on the rear axle. That leaves you with 14-1600# left on the capacity of your axle. You were going over that with just the truck camper before you even got in the truck much less anything else you carry with you. I would also guess that beings you have a loaded up Laramie that your little yellow payload sticker says that you truck probably only come with around 900# of available payload. :thumbup:
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Thanks Tranz yep everything u mentioned is exactly what I found to be correct. I didnt need the camper anymore and I really do like the truck so bye to the camper. Im about ready to get another truck but I think Im going back to springs the ride difference is def noticeable but I feel better knowing Im not gonna pop a bag or a fitting goes out. I wish they did put a more aggressive system in it but after talking to my bud at the dealer its not in the cards and Im not knowledgeable enough to redesign it using after market stuff. Too much computer involved if anything I would go to a lowrider type control system and rip all the Ram stuff out but its so inter woven in the main system Its tough
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Thanks Tranz yep everything u mentioned is exactly what I found to be correct. I didnt need the camper anymore and I really do like the truck so bye to the camper. Im about ready to get another truck but I think Im going back to springs the ride difference is def noticeable but I feel better knowing Im not gonna pop a bag or a fitting goes out. I wish they did put a more aggressive system in it but after talking to my bud at the dealer its not in the cards and Im not knowledgeable enough to redesign it using after market stuff. Too much computer involved if anything I would go to a lowrider type control system and rip all the Ram stuff out but its so inter woven in the main system Its tough
Look at the 2500's with the air. It won't ride as soft as the 1500 and have all the difference suspension options because the 2500 only has the air on the rear but if you get the gas engine there won't be a big increase in the cost and it will handle a decent sized TC if you chose to get another one. I know what you are thinking and no the new 2500's with gas motors don't drink the gas like your old one.
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I ran across this article yesterday that fits right in with this thread. Most people would think if they were buying a full size 1500 series pick up with a V8 in it that they would be good to go to tow most anything. This is a crew cab truck that has seating for 5 grown men. Remember that the people in the truck take away from available payload.........
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2015/10/a-weighty-issue-calculating-real-world-payload-towing-capacities.html (http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2015/10/a-weighty-issue-calculating-real-world-payload-towing-capacities.html)
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This is a crew cab truck that has seating for 5 grown men. Remember that the people in the truck take away from available payload.........
And if those "grown men" are overgrown, the payload drops even lower (giggle)
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This is a crew cab truck that has seating for 5 grown men. Remember that the people in the truck take away from available payload.........
And if those "grown men" are overgrown, the payload drops even lower (giggle)
If they average 200# then you are at payload. can't even take the boat with you.. :nono: (fp) (giggle)
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If they average 200# then you are at payload. can't even take the boat with you.. :nono: (fp) (giggle)
:surprised: :rolleyes:
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So does it mean everyone has to buy a f-350 dually to just pull an 18ft bass boat?
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So does it mean everyone has to buy a f-350 dually to just pull an 18ft bass boat?
I wouldn't sweat it. I would be more concerned with braking than with towing. It's not often that any of us would have 5 full grown men in our truck when we're towing our bass boats (nope)
Now, if it was a bigger saltwater boat, then we might want to look at it a bit more closely.
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I ended buying a 2011 GMC Yukon SLT. My wife will drive it until I need to pull my boat. Hopefully I can get it away from her then.
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So does it mean everyone has to buy a f-350 dually to just pull an 18ft bass boat?
I wouldn't sweat it. I would be more concerned with braking than with towing. It's not often that any of us would have 5 full grown men in our truck when we're towing our bass boats (nope)
Now, if it was a bigger saltwater boat, then we might want to look at it a bit more closely.
You buy what you want. Im just trying to put something out there for people that dont know. imo I personally look at the axle ratings and how much i will be putting on each axle. The axle is designed to carry and stop its capacity. Some people want to stay within all manufacturer ratings so i just put this up to help with their decision.
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So I've been trying to absorb all this as I am looking to find a vehicle for my wife to drive and still be able to pull my boat. She has done it for 11 years with several trips to south Texas using her Jeep Liberty Diesel.
So far all I have been able to find in the size of vehicle that she wants is the Mercedes-Benz 350 GLE. It has a tow capacity of 7200 pounds and my boat weighs close to 5000.
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So I've been trying to absorb all this as I am looking to find a vehicle for my wife to drive and still be able to pull my boat. She has done it for 11 years with several trips to south Texas using her Jeep Liberty Diesel.
So far all I have been able to find in the size of vehicle that she wants is the Mercedes-Benz 350 GLE. It has a tow capacity of 7200 pounds and my boat weighs close to 5000.
The 2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited we had had a 7200# tow rating also. I pulled my 21' Z9 with it a couple time and it did very well.
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So far all I have been able to find in the size of vehicle that she wants is the Mercedes-Benz 350 GLE.
So what, pray tell - are you towing with a Mercedes....if I may be so bold to ask? (whew)
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So what, pray tell - are you towing with a Mercedes....if I may be so bold to ask? (whew)
Mercedes does make a nice SUV with a pretty decent tow capacity and a diesel
Also, my Jeep Grand Cherokee specs 7500# for tow capacity with the diesel and it does exceptionally well.
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Oh, I have no doubt in MB capabilities - had one when I was in Germany. Just curious how special the boat was getting towed... AND blowin' Jig Man some garbage. o/
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The GLE's are assembled here in Tuscaloosa (as well as a few other countries). Everyone I know that has one likes it. After working at MBUSI for a year, It's probably the only Mercedes I would consider.